Comments for Jen's Weblog http://chasingtruth.wordpress.com Seeking truth, even if it hurts Mon, 16 Nov 2009 10:56:32 +0000 http://wordpress.com/ hourly 1 Comment on Is YWAM a Cult? by ThirstyJon http://chasingtruth.wordpress.com/2007/12/13/is-ywam-a-cult/#comment-273 ThirstyJon Mon, 16 Nov 2009 10:56:32 +0000 http://chasingtruth.wordpress.com/2007/12/13/is-ywam-a-cult/#comment-273 YWAM is huge. I've known people that had negative experiences. I've known more that found it to be quite positive. I don't know if there is "cultish" stuff that goes on inside YWAM, but I do know that there is no top-down controlling leadership from the international leaders. In that sense, it is definitely not a cult. YWAM mobilizes a lot of young leaders. Sometimes they can be quite immature. Immature young leaders anywhere tend to be controlling due to insecurity. This is not unique to YWAM. The point is, I find some of the screwy things in YWAM are just as likely to be found at your workplace. (The stupid, young, immature, insecure, controlling supervisor that you work for!) YWAM is not a cult. There may be some systematic problems though. There's my two cents. :-) YWAM is huge. I’ve known people that had negative experiences. I’ve known more that found it to be quite positive.

I don’t know if there is “cultish” stuff that goes on inside YWAM, but I do know that there is no top-down controlling leadership from the international leaders. In that sense, it is definitely not a cult.

YWAM mobilizes a lot of young leaders. Sometimes they can be quite immature.

Immature young leaders anywhere tend to be controlling due to insecurity. This is not unique to YWAM.

The point is, I find some of the screwy things in YWAM are just as likely to be found at your workplace. (The stupid, young, immature, insecure, controlling supervisor that you work for!)

YWAM is not a cult. There may be some systematic problems though.

There’s my two cents.

:-)

]]> Comment on Is YWAM a Cult? by Jon http://chasingtruth.wordpress.com/2007/12/13/is-ywam-a-cult/#comment-272 Jon Mon, 16 Nov 2009 10:48:25 +0000 http://chasingtruth.wordpress.com/2007/12/13/is-ywam-a-cult/#comment-272 Go Dan! I like it. Glad to see you here. :-) Go Dan!

I like it. Glad to see you here. :-)

]]> Comment on Is YWAM a Cult? by robere http://chasingtruth.wordpress.com/2007/12/13/is-ywam-a-cult/#comment-271 robere Mon, 09 Nov 2009 17:06:38 +0000 http://chasingtruth.wordpress.com/2007/12/13/is-ywam-a-cult/#comment-271 Reply to 'Barb' (4 Aug 2009) who made reference to my previous entries on this blog. Thanks Barb for your acknowledgement of my concerns and comments about YWAM and the views of some of the organization's leaders. Yes, I think I know where you are coming from and I am very pleased that education has been a vehicle to freedom, as has been my own experience. Viva education and rational thinking! The sad thing is that many of the older leaders in YWAM, who continue to espouse such a narrow world view, are my former colleagues toward whom I harbour no animousity. I trust that I would still realte to them with love and grace should they come across my path. Interestingly I faced this challenge only early this year; quite an event as I live in an isolated area of Planet Earth and rarely get to meet old Ywammers. The individual in question now works for another very fundamentalist US-based Chrisitan organization that promotes creationism, home-schooling and other extremely conservative causes. He happens to have a Phd from a respected secular university and I always consider it a privilege to discuss life and related matters with him; albeit generally by email these days. When he telephoned me and asked if he might visit me (he was in town presenting seminars to local Chrisitan leaders) I was determined that I would keep our contact on a friendly level as he is a dear YWAM colleague of mine from many years ago - I actually met him when I ran a Summer of Service and he and a lovely young lady were my only takers (a team of 4 including my partner)! When he visited recently I fed him local seafood which he enjoyed immensely as he is a keen fisherman in his home country. He also enjoyed some of the local wine. We both enjoyed our time together and somehow managed to avoid debate over obvious philosophical differences. Maybe age makes us all realise that there are more important things in life (like relationships) and besides, some people just do not change and there is no use in trying to change them. "Just enjoy the fellowship" is my new motto, and only speak out when someone's point of view is likely to lead to harm. "What a joy" as I once heard one old, very well known Dutch woman state in reference to the grace of God, when she addressed the Ywammers during the Munich Olympic Games Outreach in 1972! Almost brings tears to my eyes at nearly one o'clock in the morning in Down Under. Reply to ‘Barb’ (4 Aug 2009) who made reference to my previous entries on this blog. Thanks Barb for your acknowledgement of my concerns and comments about YWAM and the views of some of the organization’s leaders. Yes, I think I know where you are coming from and I am very pleased that education has been a vehicle to freedom, as has been my own experience. Viva education and rational thinking! The sad thing is that many of the older leaders in YWAM, who continue to espouse such a narrow world view, are my former colleagues toward whom I harbour no animousity. I trust that I would still realte to them with love and grace should they come across my path. Interestingly I faced this challenge only early this year; quite an event as I live in an isolated area of Planet Earth and rarely get to meet old Ywammers. The individual in question now works for another very fundamentalist US-based Chrisitan organization that promotes creationism, home-schooling and other extremely conservative causes. He happens to have a Phd from a respected secular university and I always consider it a privilege to discuss life and related matters with him; albeit generally by email these days. When he telephoned me and asked if he might visit me (he was in town presenting seminars to local Chrisitan leaders) I was determined that I would keep our contact on a friendly level as he is a dear YWAM colleague of mine from many years ago – I actually met him when I ran a Summer of Service and he and a lovely young lady were my only takers (a team of 4 including my partner)! When he visited recently I fed him local seafood which he enjoyed immensely as he is a keen fisherman in his home country. He also enjoyed some of the local wine. We both enjoyed our time together and somehow managed to avoid debate over obvious philosophical differences. Maybe age makes us all realise that there are more important things in life (like relationships) and besides, some people just do not change and there is no use in trying to change them. “Just enjoy the fellowship” is my new motto, and only speak out when someone’s point of view is likely to lead to harm. “What a joy” as I once heard one old, very well known Dutch woman state in reference to the grace of God, when she addressed the Ywammers during the Munich Olympic Games Outreach in 1972! Almost brings tears to my eyes at nearly one o’clock in the morning in Down Under.

]]> Comment on Where to go from here? Life after YWAM by C. M. Hooker http://chasingtruth.wordpress.com/2008/10/05/where-to-go-from-here-life-after-ywam/#comment-270 C. M. Hooker Sun, 08 Nov 2009 00:48:29 +0000 http://chasingtruth.wordpress.com/?p=25#comment-270 Just a thought or two about my experience as an 'onlooker'. There was a group of YWMAers renting a house nearby. I became acquainted with them and was invited to supper and to meet them on a personal basis. I was upset for them when I saw their skimpy meal provision; plus no milk or dairy products for group's children or the expectant mother. As a mother/grandmother, I questioned them about their diet. They were all polite and dare I say pitiful?? I was able to contact someone who had 'connections' and provided the group with a 50 lb. sac of powdered milk. Also I went to a local supermarket and begged for vegetables and any commodities they could spare to help my YWAMer friends. This proved providential for them, and they went frequently to pickup supplies afterwards from the supermarket. I felt the 'provision' of the YWAM establishment for their members was nonexistent!! Now I have a friend who is getting ready to join a local YWAM, along with one or two of her teenage children, while leaving her husband alone at home much of the time. She has to "raise support" (a large amount) for the two or three potential members of the group. I will have to direct her to the blogs I have just read, and do my best to discourage her NOT to leave her husband alone (he is 'not on the same spiritual level as she is'). Having lived for 30 years with an unsaved husband and raising our 5 children the best way I possible, I could write a book about how to live (and survive) with an unsaved husband!! Certainly a challenge. I did type my testimony a while back, "How it all began." Perhaps I should have added "And how it ended!" For end it did, suddenly. Anyway my heart goes out to those who get taken in by ambitious but well-meaning people. Just a thought or two about my experience as an ‘onlooker’.

There was a group of YWMAers renting a house nearby. I became acquainted with them and was invited to supper and to meet them on a personal basis. I was upset for them when I saw their skimpy meal provision; plus no milk or dairy products for group’s children or the expectant mother. As a mother/grandmother, I questioned them about their diet. They were all polite and dare I say pitiful??

I was able to contact someone who had ‘connections’ and provided the group with a 50 lb. sac of powdered milk. Also I went to a local supermarket and begged for vegetables and any commodities they could spare to help my YWAMer friends. This proved providential for them, and they went frequently to pickup supplies afterwards from the supermarket. I felt the ‘provision’ of the YWAM establishment for their members was nonexistent!!

Now I have a friend who is getting ready to join a local YWAM, along with one or two of her teenage children, while leaving her husband alone at home much of the time. She has to “raise support” (a large amount) for the two or three potential members of the group. I will have to direct her to the blogs I have just read, and do my best to discourage her NOT to leave her husband alone (he is ‘not on the same spiritual level as she is’). Having lived for 30 years with an unsaved husband and raising our 5 children the best way I possible, I could write a book about how to live (and survive) with an unsaved husband!! Certainly a challenge. I did type my testimony a while back, “How it all began.” Perhaps I should have added “And how it ended!” For end it did, suddenly. Anyway my heart goes out to those who get taken in by ambitious but well-meaning people.

]]> Comment on My experience with YWAM (pt 2) by billcnz http://chasingtruth.wordpress.com/2008/05/12/my-experience-with-ywam-pt-2/#comment-269 billcnz Sat, 07 Nov 2009 11:08:18 +0000 http://chasingtruth.wordpress.com/?p=21#comment-269 Tim, I strongly disagree recommending the book “Crucified by Christians” by Gene Edwards. I found it grossly misrepresented God’s character and portrayed him as evil and unjust. P. 78 “Jesus was in conflict with his father”. p. 83 The father wanted his son crucified. p. 88 ….”agree with lies and rumours…..” Gene Edwards has given wicked blasphemy against God’s character stated in his the Bible. Deut 32:3-4 I will proclaim the name of the LORD. Oh, praise the greatness of our God! He is the Rock, his works are perfect, and all his ways are just. A faithful God who does no wrong, upright and just is he. Rev 15:3 Great and marvelous are your deeds, Lord God Almighty. Just and true are your ways, King of the ages. Ezekiel 18:29-32 Yet the house of Israel says, 'The way of the Lord is not just.' Are my ways unjust, O house of Israel? Is it not your ways that are unjust? "Therefore, O house of Israel, I will judge you, each one according to his ways, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall. Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, O house of Israel? For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent and live! God is perfect and just, because the Bible says he is, whereas the devil and people that are imperfect through sin. Gene Edwards has assigned the intentions and character of the devil on to God, as a way of explaining evil in the world. In recent times Gene Edwards appears to have gone into occult mysticism, which is to be expected if he follows a god who has the character of the devil: 2 Cor 4:4 THE GOD OF THIS AGE has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. It seems “the god of this age” has blinded the mind of Gene Edwards. See http://letusreason.org/b.hinn14.htm Also http://www.angelfire.com/ia/BereanInquirer/GeneEdwardsIntro.html Tim, you are recommending an author who is straying away from sound doctrine, just like the YWAM organisation is. Out of the frying pan and into the fire! Tim, I strongly disagree recommending the book “Crucified by Christians” by Gene Edwards.

I found it grossly misrepresented God’s character and portrayed him as evil and unjust.

P. 78 “Jesus was in conflict with his father”.
p. 83 The father wanted his son crucified.
p. 88 ….”agree with lies and rumours…..”

Gene Edwards has given wicked blasphemy against God’s character stated in his the Bible.

Deut 32:3-4 I will proclaim the name of the LORD. Oh, praise the greatness of our God! He is the Rock, his works are perfect, and all his ways are just. A faithful God who does no wrong, upright and just is he.

Rev 15:3 Great and marvelous are your deeds, Lord God Almighty. Just and true are your ways, King of the ages.

Ezekiel 18:29-32 Yet the house of Israel says, ‘The way of the Lord is not just.’ Are my ways unjust, O house of Israel? Is it not your ways that are unjust?
“Therefore, O house of Israel, I will judge you, each one according to his ways, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall. Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, O house of Israel? For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent and live!

God is perfect and just, because the Bible says he is, whereas the devil and people that are imperfect through sin.

Gene Edwards has assigned the intentions and character of the devil on to God, as a way of explaining evil in the world.

In recent times Gene Edwards appears to have gone into occult mysticism, which is to be expected if he follows a god who has the character of the devil:

2 Cor 4:4 THE GOD OF THIS AGE has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

It seems “the god of this age” has blinded the mind of Gene Edwards.

See http://letusreason.org/b.hinn14.htm

Also http://www.angelfire.com/ia/BereanInquirer/GeneEdwardsIntro.html

Tim, you are recommending an author who is straying away from sound doctrine, just like the YWAM organisation is.

Out of the frying pan and into the fire!

]]> Comment on My experience with YWAM (pt 2) by Vntil we meet again... http://chasingtruth.wordpress.com/2008/05/12/my-experience-with-ywam-pt-2/#comment-268 Vntil we meet again... Thu, 05 Nov 2009 16:14:37 +0000 http://chasingtruth.wordpress.com/?p=21#comment-268 Jen, I'm a little confused; you say that you are going back to your ancestral roots--Judaism--what does this mean? The roots of Christianity is Judaism, so why must one leave the church to drink from the waters of Judaism? What was lacking such that you felt to leave Christianity? Why speak of 'faith of my ancestors'; should every race and ethnicity have their own religion and path??? Is it that you do not believe that Jesus was the promised messiah of the Jews, or is it just that Christians and the church have muddled, through word and deed, what Jesus clearly taught about himself? Without the promise of a messiah, I wonder (quite seriously), what does Judaism offer that you found lacking in Christianity? What story does Judaism tell that you have found yourself longing to engage in? I sincerely would like to know. Jen,
I’m a little confused; you say that you are going back to your ancestral roots–Judaism–what does this mean? The roots of Christianity is Judaism, so why must one leave the church to drink from the waters of Judaism? What was lacking such that you felt to leave Christianity?
Why speak of ‘faith of my ancestors’; should every race and ethnicity have their own religion and path???
Is it that you do not believe that Jesus was the promised messiah of the Jews, or is it just that Christians and the church have muddled, through word and deed, what Jesus clearly taught about himself?
Without the promise of a messiah, I wonder (quite seriously), what does Judaism offer that you found lacking in Christianity? What story does Judaism tell that you have found yourself longing to engage in? I sincerely would like to know.

]]> Comment on My experience with YWAM (pt 2) by Jen http://chasingtruth.wordpress.com/2008/05/12/my-experience-with-ywam-pt-2/#comment-267 Jen Thu, 05 Nov 2009 14:43:24 +0000 http://chasingtruth.wordpress.com/?p=21#comment-267 As I just wrote above, my leaving of Christianity has nothing at all to do with my experience with YWAM. I also had a long experience in the church, good & bad and I know how to deal with the 'bad' very well. My leaving of Christianity came after studying for ordination & a theology degree. After years of study & prayer, I am now returning to the faith of my ancestors: Judaism. Please read again my previous posts. I am very clear YWAM had no part in my decision to leave Christianity. As I just wrote above, my leaving of Christianity has nothing at all to do with my experience with YWAM. I also had a long experience in the church, good & bad and I know how to deal with the ‘bad’ very well. My leaving of Christianity came after studying for ordination & a theology degree. After years of study & prayer, I am now returning to the faith of my ancestors: Judaism.
Please read again my previous posts. I am very clear YWAM had no part in my decision to leave Christianity.

]]> Comment on My experience with YWAM (pt 2) by Jen http://chasingtruth.wordpress.com/2008/05/12/my-experience-with-ywam-pt-2/#comment-266 Jen Thu, 05 Nov 2009 14:38:00 +0000 http://chasingtruth.wordpress.com/?p=21#comment-266 Just an FYI- I did NOT leave Christianity because of YWAM, not in the least did my experience with YWAM have an influence on my family's decision. And I have not given up on G-d in the least. Just an FYI- I did NOT leave Christianity because of YWAM, not in the least did my experience with YWAM have an influence on my family’s decision. And I have not given up on G-d in the least.

]]> Comment on My experience with YWAM (Pt. 1) by the real konastephen http://chasingtruth.wordpress.com/2007/12/25/my-experience-with-ywam-pt-1/#comment-265 the real konastephen Thu, 05 Nov 2009 08:49:23 +0000 http://chasingtruth.wordpress.com/2007/12/25/my-experience-with-ywam-pt-1/#comment-265 Very interesting. I compare my own early childhood experiences of YWAM in rough accommodations in places all over Europe and North America. I suppose one would have had to have been there to appreciate the perspective and intentions of people like Loren who were a part of it all along. I can see how in the context of the changed culture in the 90s your experience must have seemed very strange. To me 1996 seems so recent... I know that by that point, theological problems in YWAM had become quite pronounced. How tragic that they've had such devastating effects on so many young people. This explains so much I didn't realize and confirms much I only suspected or conjectured. I'm a bit at a loss for words actually... my own life experience tells me that your story with God is far from over and someday I trust you will look back on all this and thank him for his gracious love towards you through it all. Very interesting. I compare my own early childhood experiences of YWAM in rough accommodations in places all over Europe and North America. I suppose one would have had to have been there to appreciate the perspective and intentions of people like Loren who were a part of it all along. I can see how in the context of the changed culture in the 90s your experience must have seemed very strange. To me 1996 seems so recent… I know that by that point, theological problems in YWAM had become quite pronounced. How tragic that they’ve had such devastating effects on so many young people. This explains so much I didn’t realize and confirms much I only suspected or conjectured. I’m a bit at a loss for words actually… my own life experience tells me that your story with God is far from over and someday I trust you will look back on all this and thank him for his gracious love towards you through it all.

]]> Comment on My experience with YWAM (pt 2) by the real konastephen http://chasingtruth.wordpress.com/2008/05/12/my-experience-with-ywam-pt-2/#comment-264 the real konastephen Thu, 05 Nov 2009 08:24:39 +0000 http://chasingtruth.wordpress.com/?p=21#comment-264 Yes, good additional details to what I know of this issue as well (see my post in "About Me". However, the more I read in this blog, Jen's wholesale rejection of Christianity espcially, the more I'm concerned of lack of balance and lack of knowledge. There was a small segment of YWAM that sincerely rejected moral government and many good things have come out of it. Particularly the School of the Biblical Worldview in Wiler, Switzerland and all of their network within YWAM. To say that all YWAM is cultish or dangerous is sadly, not true (I say sadly, thinking sadly of my friends who have been fighting a losing battle within YWAM for so long). To reject Christianity altogether is "throwing the baby out with the bathwater". I think of what John the Baptist and his doubts towards the end and the response he received... To those who are doubting here I say, hold the faith. Trust in God. Yes, good additional details to what I know of this issue as well (see my post in “About Me”. However, the more I read in this blog, Jen’s wholesale rejection of Christianity espcially, the more I’m concerned of lack of balance and lack of knowledge. There was a small segment of YWAM that sincerely rejected moral government and many good things have come out of it. Particularly the School of the Biblical Worldview in Wiler, Switzerland and all of their network within YWAM. To say that all YWAM is cultish or dangerous is sadly, not true (I say sadly, thinking sadly of my friends who have been fighting a losing battle within YWAM for so long). To reject Christianity altogether is “throwing the baby out with the bathwater”. I think of what John the Baptist and his doubts towards the end and the response he received… To those who are doubting here I say, hold the faith. Trust in God.

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