My heart goes out to the families of those in Denver, both at New Life and YWAM Arvada. The shooter, Matthew Murray, was definitely mentally ill, however, it seems his treatment at YWAM exacerbated his illness.
There is a very large network of former YWAMers all over the globe who have received horrible spiritual and emotional abuse from YWAM, at numerous different bases. I also know many who have had good experiences in their DTS, but there are so many people coming out of the woodwork telling about how YWAM destroyed their lives. Sad, but true.
My husband and I can tell you firsthand of the twisted abuse we received in just this year. We are still trying to recover from the ordeal and God has been so good to us and taken care of us.
I have been trying to sort out all that we have experienced and I found a wealth of information for those who have been in YWAM and faced abuse. I found this list (and many books by former cult-members) and just reading this list gives me chills. This has been my experience with YWAM in every base I have worked with…
Eight Marks of a Mind-Control Cult
by Randall Watters
Brainwashing has become almost a household word in the last two decades or so. In 1961, Robert J. Lifton wrote the definitive book on the subject, Thought Reform and the Psychology of Totalism, after studying the effects of mind control on American prisoners of war under the Communist Chinese. Lifton outlines eight major factors that can be used to identify whether a group is a destructive cult or not. Any authoritarian religion should be held up to the light in order to determine just how destructive their influence is on their members. Judge for yourselves.
Milieu Control
“Milieu” is a French word meaning “surroundings; environment.” Cults are able to control the environment around their recruits in a number of ways, but almost always using a form of isolation. Recruits can be physically separated from society, or they can be warned under threat of punishment to stay away from the world’s educational media, especially when it might provoke critical thinking. Any books, movies or testimonies of ex-members of the group, or even anyone critical of the group in any way are to be avoided.
Information is carefully kept on each recruit by the mother organization. All are watched, lest they fall behind or get too far ahead of the thinking of the organization. Because it appears that the organization knows so much about everything and everyone, they appear omniscient in the eyes of the recruits.
Mystical Manipulation
In religious cults, God is ever-present in the workings of the organization. If a person leaves for any reason, accidents or ill-will that may befall them are always attributed to God’s punishment on them. For the faithful, the angels are always said to be working, and stories circulate about how God is truly doing marvelous things among them, because they are “the truth.” The organization is therefore given a certain “mystique” that is quite alluring to the new recruit.
Demand for Purity
The world is depicted as black and white, with little room for making personal decisions based on a trained conscience. One’s conduct is modeled after the ideology of the group, as taught in its literature. People and organizations are pictured as either good or evil, depending on their relationship to the cult.
Universal tendencies of guilt and shame are used to control individuals, even after they leave. There is great difficulty in understanding the complexities of human morality, since everything is polarized and oversimplified. All things classified as evil are to be avoided, and purity is attainable through immersion into the cult’s ideology.
The Cult of Confession
Serious sins (as defined by the organization) are to be confessed immediately. The members are to be reported if found walking contrary to the rules.
There is often a tendency to derive pleasure from self-degradation through confession. This occurs when all must confess their sins before each other regularly, creating an intense kind of “oneness” within the group. It also allows leaders from within to exercise authority over the weaker ones, using their “sins” as a whip to lead them on.
The “Sacred Science”
The cult’s ideology becomes the ultimate moral vision for the ordering of human existence. The ideology is too “sacred” to call into question, and a reverence is demanded for the leadership. The cult’s ideology makes an exaggerated claim for possessing airtight logic, making it appear as absolute truth with no contradictions. Such an attractive system offers security.
Loading the Language
Lifton explains the prolific use of “thought-terminating cliches,” expressions or words that are designed to end the conversation or controversy. We are all familiar with the use of the cliches “capitalist” and “imperialist,” as used by antiwar demonstrators in the 60’s. Such cliches are easily memorized and readily expressed. They are called the “language of non-thought,” since the discussion is terminated, not allowing further consideration.
In the Watchtower, for instance, expressions such as “the truth”, the “mother organization”, the “new system”, “apostates” and “worldly” carry with them a judgment on outsiders, leaving them unworthy of further consideration.
Doctrine Over Person
Human experience is subordinated to doctrine, no matter how profound or contradictory such experiences seem. The history of the cult is altered to fit their doctrinal logic. The person is only valuable insomuch as they conform to the role models of the cult. Commonsense perceptions are disregarded if they are hostile to the cult’s ideology.
Dispensing of Existence
The cult decides who has the “right” to exist and who does not. They decide who will perish in the final battle of good over evil. The leaders decide which history books are accurate and which are biased. Families can be cut off and outsiders can be deceived, for they are not fit to exist!
My experience with YWAM a few years ago was a completely positive one. I think much of the reason why it was beneficially to my was exactly the opposite of what you’ve said here. I found that YWAM was a place where I could ask very honest questions about God and where questioning my faith was encouraged and not discouraged like you suggest. I realize everyone has a different experience with YWAM and think it is the ultimate tragedy when someone feels spiritually abused by a place that aims to nurture a persons relationship with God.
I understand that some people see YWAM as a ‘cult’, because, in a way it is a very isolated world. But it was this sense of isolation that allowed me to come face to face and honestly evaluate what I believe truth to be. I find that alot of the evidence provided to prove YWAM as a cult, is in fact opposite of the YWAM I experienced. A place that didn’t claim to be the highest power and that encouraged asking questions and discovering truth, many different views (often contradicting views) were presented and it was up to me to evaluate my ideas as opposed to being spoon fed a particular doctrine.
It breaks my heart that the shooter in Denver had accumulated enough rage against YWAM that he could consider such a violent act, much less carry it out. Maybe it was a result of YWAM neglecting those who have left on bad terms, maybe it had to do with mental illness, maybe it was the result of miscommunication or more than likely a combination of these and many other factors. It is difficult to understand that someone could experience such strong hatred towards a place I’ve come to appreciate so much.
Jen,
Thanks for your post! I also had a horrible experience and agree that the behaviors are cultish. Very emotionally and spiritually unhealthy group! Toxic!
I went to a base in the 80’s in South Jersey. Several years after their abusive treatment of myself and later I learned others, the leaders had a split and they began to abuse and betray eachother. All of course while hearing from God. There was an excommunication of some of the leaders at the New Jersey base who gained control of that base in the court of law. I don’t know or care about the details. But I learned that top YWAM leaders (you’d be shocked to know who…) abusively mistreated the leaders there and its just ugly. The leaders that spiritually abused us were ousted like I and other DTS students were by them. Filthy! No one ever repented. All felt justified abusing brothers and sisters in Christ. Really it was abuse of power. Religious power. Rick Ross has a website that talks about that base.
I don’t write any of this in bitterness. I am so over this group. It was twenty years ago and I have had wonderful experiences with other churches definitely not related even remotely to YWAM.
I just want youth to be warned that there are alot of Christian groups and leaders that hide really abusive activities behind thier religion. Then they blame the victim. It seems also that if other participants don’t abuse you they side with the abuser.
Be careful where you go to learn about the Lord. If they are not like Him, they are not serving Him either. The servant is not greater (or different) than their master. Christian leaders should be very loving. If you don’t feel loved, it’s because you are not being loved. People know when they are loved. It’s unmistakable. Everyone is starving for it. Love fills a hunger and God provides that kind of love through people that really serve Him.
Selfish abusive leadership comes from selfish abusive people (sometimes with personality disorders)hiding behind religion to do their own thing. All the while claiming to be doing God’s will. Jesus said you shall know them by their fruit. Spiritual abuse is bad fruit.
Shandel,
I’m very glad to hear that you had a good experience with YWAM. I recognize that there are a few good bases or leaders in YWAM, as I have met a few, but overall I’ve found rampant abuse. I worked with YWAM off and on for 15 years, and I attended a DTS when I was 18. My husband attended a DTS as well…I’ll post another blog about that experience.
I don’t view YWAM as cult because of the isolation alone, it is the authoritarianism and severe emotional manipulation within the isolation. Like I said, I’ll have to post about my experiences in YWAM.
Bluebird,
The Rick Ross website was the first I came across when I finally came to the realization that I had been involved in an abusive group. I didn’t want to admit that YWAM could be a cult since I was practically raised in YWAM. I had also had Loren Cunningham & my base leaders on a pedestal (most YWAMers do this).
I’m glad you have come out the other side of your experience with YWAM not bitter. I am just now coming to terms myself and like you, I am not bitter. I just want people to be careful who they work with in ministry. A “Christian” label doesn’t mean much when the actions are hurtful.
Shandel,
You’re so right. I was just young and niave at the time and have learned alot more about people and their motives for ministry over the years. Not everyone is there because they love God and their neighbor. There’s alot of power and sometimes money to be had through ministry. If people have character flaws and personality problems these two things can be very dangerous in their hands. And with religion and godliness to cover it up they can wreak havoc on people’s mental, emotional and spiritual lives, as we have heard.
I’m older and wiser now, so I just want younger people to know the truth. The base where I was, was the second YWAM base established. So it had lots of history with the top leaders. I’m sure the betrayal and rift affected them. Not enough to reconsider their ways though.
Something I felt the Lord impressed me with is when Jesus said that those who keep His word and teach others also are great in the kingdom of God. Those who do not keep His word and teach others the same are the least.
I have been blessed to be led to ministries and leaders that qualify as great because they believe and do what He said (love God and your neighbor). The difference between them and some of the YWAM leaders at this base are like night and day. Also, scripture says people are going to be selfish and even brutal in the last days. It says they will have a form of godliness! That means they may even be Christians! Then it warns us to turn away. There is nothing good to be had here. No anointing or calling will make up for abusiveness. It can rip your life apart. We should never put ourselves in the hands of such people if we can help it.
Knowledge is step one. Knowing and believing and living by God’s word really helps, because through it He speaks to us about such things.
God bless you Shantal. We are all sinners saved by grace (if we really are believers). And no one, even leaders, is perfect. But what is in our hearts is surely revealed in our actions towards other people. Spiritual abuse is really bad fruit.
Hi Shandel. I will be a bit facetious (but tongue in cheek though) and ask if it was the Moon Base of YWAM where you stayed? Seriously though, there has to be some good bases with good leadership and you obviously struck one, you lucky gal. Please give us an intro to it as I have met many disaffected ex-ywammers who would like to see it too. However, it is not so much the obvious difference between the different bases and the different leaders that is the crux of the matter, as the Jehovah Witnesses, Mormons, and many other groups like them have some genuinely nice human being working for them too. I can remember meeting the head of the JW’s a Third World Country when I worked there with YWAM. He was a really nice fellow and I am sure he would have ensured that all the participants in his local fellowships treated one another with dignity. He happened to have been born into a JW family and knew nothing better! But the trouble happened to be, he was the member of an exclusive group who thought they are the guardians of the whole truth. Abuse arises out of such philosophies, as it does out of the philosophies of other less exclusive groups like YWAM. Just have a close look at the core teachings of the YWAM hero, Joy Dawson. I found her so-called teaching on intercession and holiness to be marked by a lot of guilt, ‘mumbo jumbo’ holiness, and suppressing our own thoughts (as pure and natural as they might have be anyway). I’ll never forget her presentation at a YWAM outreach where she filled the altar with weeping youth after asking them the loaded question, “Do any of you practice masturbation. If so, you need to repent?” This sermon was about the holiness that must precede effective intercession. My god, I wondered if she wasn’t at it herself on a daily basis and felt so guilty that she projected her anxiety through her preaching. I left YWAM not long afterward as I didn’t want to be screwed up by such narrow-mindedness. I wonder now why she didn’t ask if any of the youth were involved in graft or corruption, murder or rape? She missed these more serious categories of deviant human behaviour somehow. I also think her teaching about leaving our minds open to god to be guided in intercession is fraught with problems. Surely god gave us a brain to use and to leave it in automatic will ensure that it gets filled with all sought of crazy ideas. My view is that we all need to get a good education and start to ask some intelligent and analytical questions of these so-called religious icons. Frankly, I think most of them have a core narcissism that is often cloaked in “special calling from god’ clothing. We should see past this and question them without fear, as we would anyone else who positions themselves as a god-ordained leader in a democracy. Get a life I say to narrow-minded fundamentalists like Joy Dawson and Loren Cunningham and stop trying to add your own bondage to the lives of our youth when youth is made for the living! They will soon become adults anyway, and without choice will end up having to curb some of their youthful excesses. However, in the meantime, for god’s sake, let them enjoy their high-spirited god-given passions and ambitions in a manner that is respectful of their fellow human beings.
There are YWAM bases that are good and those that suck canal water. I’ve met abusive leaders in YWAM, but can honestly report that they were dealt with — and removed when they refused to repent. I’ve read the “eight signs” article before, and I can promise you that any DTS that I lead doesn’t even come close to that list.
Yes, we’ve seen abuse in YWAM, but we’re doing everything we can at our base to make sure it doesn’t happen again. We teach our students to think for themselves, to appreciate diversity of theological views, and we actively teach AGAINST spiritual abuse by identifying what it is and how it works.
We’re not perfect, but for the DTS’s that we are personally running, we can say with honesty that we will not tolerate manipulation or bizarre theologies. We can only speak for ourselves, of course, but we’re trying to make a difference!
Really discouraged ….My heart sank after I watched my son work all summer to raise the money for his DTS, and found him in my driveway tonight..Though it was Christmas night and it felt good to see my son…I could see the defeated look on his face when he couldn’t raise enough money for his outreach. He went with the prior understanding that for about 3500.00 he could do his outreach. He later found out that they said it was God’s will that they have Christmas in France and arrive to several other countries as well for a very short term at a price of 6200.00 My son had no peace that this was in fact God’s will..but leaders had several meetings and felt that my son was to go..They, for several weeks, everyday or so, stayed on my son, persistently, about finding the money to go. This went to the point, they, one of the leaders, went to the guest we encouraged to go to the same DTS and asked him if he could go to his parents and borrow the money for our son..needless to say I spent 3 hour on the phone explaining and apologizing for this to the parents. Leaders seem to be very aggressive in this way in Kona Hawaii…They convinced my son to give his 3000.00 and to wait on God to find later when the funds didn’t come in they kept 800.00 because they said they had to cancel his tickets he wasn’t comfortable buying in the first place. I have supported YWAM Kona Hawaii for the last 4 years but no more with out proper discerning and genuine interest in meeting the needs of the sheep… The ironic part is they boast that its roughly a 3800.00 give or take lecture phase with appropriate discounts for under privilege countries two lesser amounts of tuition…That’s is great!! till they leave you stranded with 3500.00 and can’t go on outreach and finish your school because it’s now going to cost 6200.00. If you don’t think this affects your whole state of character development … where’s the discipleship here?
Jesus wouldn’t leave His sheep behind would HE?? Would He leave you behind for a mission in mind because you didn’t have 6200.00 dollars. “YWAM Hawaii advertises their outreaches to costing from 3000.00 to 4000.00″.. Where did we go wrong?? I have been praying as a helpless parent across seas that God would give a new revelation to several leaders in charge. When my son got home he shared that the last speaker that came to speak to the DTS spoke about the fact of most expensive outreaches are some of the least affective!! I couldn’t believe what I was hearing…God was answering my prayers but they still were not listening. Then my son said, just a day or so before leaving one of the teams made another error and they were raising their outreach to 7500.00
God must of made a error… right??? lol.. If its God’s job and provision in all outreach fund raising why isn’t this applied to the lecture phase instead discounts for the under privileged countries ..JUST HAVE GOD PROVIDE..
Do you find this strange that God provides for only the wealthy countries?? and not the poor ..so…alterations and discounts need to be applied to the lecture phase only…You can be a leader of some small poor bases out there..and have 7000.00 outreaches but you will be very lonely…Why is there a provision in place to help with a discounted lecture phase when these poor countries won’t be able to afford their outreaches. I don’t blame YWAM for being a cult but they are walking out on some small branches when it comes to MATURE leadership….which is very Biblical. The mature are people sensitive to the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Sanctification is the process of yielding to the “character” of the Holy Spirit..Sometimes this takes awhile and under the pressure of needing leaders, we think that God will pick up the slack… The other thing is hearing the “voice of God” can be very dangerous in its process if not discerned very carefully…The American Government doesn’t seen to having a problem with spending our money in regards to a lot of justification…There is a government set in place for leadership and these decisions, that don’t invest their own money when it comes to these expensive outreaches…I wonder if that tends to gravitate a position that can stray??
Yours truly frustration,
Ranscott
ps. if you you carefully with maturity bring this to the leaders for accountability it seems as though they look at you as having a lack of spiritual maturity…?…?….
Dear Ranscott
I am truly appalled by your obviously true story. Who would go to such lengths and provide such details if it were not so? Stand by your convictions Ranscott, you have taken the right stand. Don’t anyone make you feel guilty or be swayed by feeling sorry for your son (that most caring parents would experience anyway). He’ll come to respect you heaps as the years go by and learn much from your example. You know, as a successful past participant in YWAM (6 years service) over 30 years ago now, I came to see so much of the same things you describe. I cannot believe that such impropriety can still happen so far down the track. Has the organisation learned nothing? I heard that guidelines were introduced to stop the ‘fleecing of the flock’ as happened so often back in my days with them. I can remember the emotion charged calls for finance that were put to groups of vulnerable individuals by leaders who were obviously convinced about the validity of their vision. I wondered in later years how many middle-aged short-term participants ended up cashing in their insurance policies and retirement funds, or sold their properties to raise the cash in order to respond to these calls. Poor devils! If you ask me I think there is a good amount of narcissism in the personalities of many who aspire to leadership in such organisations. It is so easy for the narcissist to believe implicitly in their god-given right to manage the so-called Kingdom of God on earth as they see fit. Respect for, and the protection of individual financial security comes a distant second in their consideration, I am sure. All I can say is steer clear and stay safe. I made the break from YWAM and found many other service opportunities with organisations that had good corporate governance policy ensuring protection for their employees or volunteer work force. It is the right of every individual to request a copy of such policies and if that request is not met, then let the participant beware.
I don’t want to hog the blog, but after laying low for over 30 years as an ex-Ywammer, I have now discovered the growing chorus of discontent voiced by a myriad of disaffected former Ywammers. There are many web sites to look at for this info, such as RickRoss (as Jen highlights), but a few others are worth a look at too. Google “factnet ywam” and check out some of factnet’s comments from past Ywammers. Also, I have posted a couple of short articles myself that try to take a rational and I hope dispassionate look at some of my own experiences in Ywam, as well as presenting a brief critique of the first chapter of Dean Sherman’s book on spiritual warfare: http://www.psuedocults.blogspot.com/.
Also, there are some interesting comments at follow Christianity Today articles about the Colorado tragedy. One is at: http://blog.christianitytoday.com/ctliveblog/archives/2007/12/reports_draw_co.html
Long live democracy that permits freedom of speech!
Robere
Jen, I took the liberty to copy a comment I made at Christianity Today across to your site as it appears to fit in with the theme of your commentry on YWAM, I was replying to a comment by David (12/16/07) who said,
“I have been in YWAM for over 20 years. We have had over 20 million people of all ages go through YWAM teaching. A hand full of people that had a bad experence is NOT a bad record.”
My reply (12/20/07) to David is as follows:
“Dave, does YWAM conduct systematic standardised exit interviews with all those who leave the organisation? If not, then your statistics are probably way out of whack. The handful of people you are hypothesising about may indeed turn out to be a throng of significant proportions if the silent majority of dissatisfied participants are surveyed. Restaurateurs and hoteliers know only too well that most people vote with their feet, but lack the assertiveness to verbally communicate their dissatisfaction. That’s why the very best hotels have exit interview cards waiting for you in your room so they can collect some valid exit stats. Don’t hide your head in the sand like so many ‘long-termers’ in organisations like YWAM. It is all too prevalent to live in denial if your primary reason for living is tied up with the vision espoused by an organisation like YWAM. I was with YWAM for some years too, and successfully so, but was one of the silent throng who have left feeling that there were too many barriers to committing one’s life and talents to an organisation that had some major problems at the foundational philosophical level (such as the intense American ethnocentrism that alienated so many ‘foreign’ participants). Yes, I realise that some very talented people have stayed, some gifted leaders, but these are the exceptions. How many others have stayed because after some years they start to believe that it may be too late, or just too hard to retrain for another vocation, or to transfer to another missionary organisation? By then they are probably tempted to live in denial and defend the organisation ‘by hook or by crook’. To not do so would leave their ‘raison d’etre’ for life and career in a very precarious state indeed. Furthermore, how many are now staying because they were born into it, and after years of intense socialisation in the Mission, they know nothing of life outside of it? With the hope of not sounding patronising, let me assure you and others in YWAM, that it is not too late to leave. There is a whole world of wonderful service opportunities awaiting the brave and honest at heart who decide to take the challenge and depart.”
Robere
Robbymac (12/24/07)
As we say Downunder, “Onya mate!” Being interpreted it means, “Good on you mate!” I hope that you can bring some positive change to the wider YWAM community before your obvious talents, objectivity and openness of mind inevitably lead you elsewhere.
Robere,
Thank you for the links & mentioning the Christianity Today article. The shooting in Colorado was the catalyst for this blog. I had kept my experiences (and those of my friends in ywam) quiet, but after the obvious connection of ywam & spiritual abuse in Colorado, I “came out”.
My husband and our family were kicked out of the Hong Kong YWAM base this past summer, and we still live a stone’s throw away from the base, so I’ve been caution with my postings. There is quite lot of intimidation and such from those at the base, but I’m getting a little more brave by the day to post our recent brush with YWAM….
All I can say is thanks for this weblog Jen! My experience was sooo long ago, but reading similar stories and viewpoints gives me terrific closure! Inspite of how traumatizing the humiliation and spiritual abuse was at the time, I get to now thank God I wasn’t there for long and that it didn’t take them long to figure out that a free thinker and spiritually sensitive person like me did not belong in their group. I couldn’t fit into their pigeon-hole. They knew it. I didn’t.
Everything I hear about YWAM confirms my perception of them as cultish. That is a very destructive way for a spiritual organization to be. I’m sure it originates with people’s dyfunctional early family lives. As leaders they function out of that and reproduce early family dysfunction with their leadership. As new recruits, they are ripe for the pickins. It’s sad. But God has so much more for us.
And, Jesus did not give His life to save us so we would accept spiritual oppression and deception. We need to resist this from within and when we do, He is with us, empowering us against it. But of course this is not a flesh and blood battle.
God bless all of you! Jesus saves! God is LOVE!
Hi Jen,
Thanks for your weblog!
I too was motivated by what happened in Colorado to “come out” as it were about abuse in YWAM.
My interest was peaked, knowing the ‘close’ association of the leadership in Arvada and the leadership in YWAM Oz. YWAM Oz having potentially great influence on how things ‘run’ in Arvada.
Thankfully, there are people like robbymac (excellant material & links on his website) and robere obviously still in YWAM that can see things “that are not so good about YWAM”, and are not afraid to speak out, and do all they can to see change, come about.
It is amazing to see in different blogs, just how wide spread in YWAM this problem of manipulation and abuse is.
My experience was over a 10 year period, in YWAM (Australia).
My family and I broke free in September 07. Unfortunately, the later years have been the worst by far. There are some deep wounds!
I could tell many stories of how unfairly people were treated, physically, mentally and spiritually, but that is their stories, I can only tell mine. (for another time)
It does take a long time to “get over it” partially because I still have friends in YWAM who I love and respect and am concerned for. One can not just move on and forget what happened, when snippits of ongoing abuses find there way into your world.
All the best Jen.
Keep the blogs going… we all need to be heard, others need to be warned.
God Bless you and yours
Jeff
Jen,
Just noticed this on my desk calender…
“The integrity of the upright guides them, but the unfaithful are destroyed by their duplicity”
Proverbs 11:3
Jeff
I am sorry you had such difficult experiences even DownUnder. It is amazing how pervasive are the wounds from fundamentalist pentecostalist organisations, reaching to the four corners of the earth.
I am one of the lucky ones Jeff and have been able to move on and find life after YWAM. I sincerely wish you the best and hope that you speedily find a Shangri-La for both yourself and your family.
Take a look at a blog that I posted in the last couple of days; some of it repetitious if you have already visited my above blog, but it adds some additional information (toward the end) that you may find of interest. I know I will be considered a bit of a modernist by some, but then life experiences have expanded my horizons, so to speak.
http://www.ywamquacks.blogspot.com
Cheers
Robere
I am a former YWAMer, and I must say I am intrigued to read these many posts about good and bad experiences with YWAM.
I am grateful to Jesus that he gave me that experience, but also I am grateful that he continued to press upon my heart the need to ask the following question, “Jesus, what do you think of this?”
Each new experience, be it theological, experiential, whatever I continually asked Jesus what he thought about that. Through this experience I was able to compartmentalize the good and the bad, and walk away with a great experience. I learned a lot, and my world view was definitley expanded.
The one question I have for you all is, what is spiritual abuse? I see many of you refer to this, however I have never heard this phrase.
Robbie,
I’m glad you were able to glean a positive time from YWAM and learn from it.
To answer your question about what spiritual abuse is,
David Johnson & Jeff VanVonderen in ‘The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse’ describe the action: “It’s possible to become so determined to defend a spiritual place of authority, a doctrine or a way of doing things that you wound and abuse anyone who questions, or disagrees, or doesn’t ‘behave’ spiritually the way you want them to. When your words and actions tear down another, or attack or weaken a person’s standing as a Christian- to gratify you, your position or your beliefs while at the same time weakening or harming another- that is spiritual abuse.”
I recently read, and re-read the book ‘Combatting Cult Mind Control’ by Steve Hassan, who had at one time been a member of the Moonies. It is a real eye-opener for a me as a former YWAMer, as I (and my husband and young children) had experienced severe cultic spiritual abuse at the hand of our YWAM leaders. I highly recommend the book.
Identifying Legalism as opposed to Cult Beliefs.
I am disappointed at the watercolored generalities of these comments about YWAM. Those that have posted bad experiences here should not confuse the Abusive behavior
with the pure vision of Loren Cunningham or mature believers in Jesus who actually have been given the vision of reaching the lost. I realize that posting this is also open to critics, but I hope that each of you who have had a bad experience with leaders of YWAM do not hold the maturity to have behaved in the way they did if the great deceiver had not entered their own personalities. Treachery like the kind & types that have been described here, are not the true vision of YWAM. They represent a betrayal of the Truth within the Word of God, not
the policy of YWAM. I have worked with YWAM for over 20 years, and the circumstances and facts presented by injured people here need to be addressed directly by Loren Cunningham and John Dawson directly. These YWAM directors, or leaders who have committed such crimes should be dismissed immediately and restitutions made to those who
have been injured. But I will say that power, authority, false humility and pride are the root of the behaviors and experiences listed here on this blog. These are not the true character and vision of the YWAM teams and believers that I work with. What you describe here is nothing less than Prideful, puffed up knowledge, it has turned into a form of legalism and rule of law. Something Jesus came to this earth to destroy once and for all times. A mature Christian can
see Legalistic behaviors from a mile off…this is discusting stuff. However, do not condeme the rest of YWAM who do
not condone this behavior in any shape or form.
I encourage you to be kind to those who have not breached this trust and have been pure, faithful and kind to those they worked with in YWAM.
One simple LIFE observation; generalities tend to be bias and prejudice in haste. Please don’t throw the baby out with the bath water. There are very mature and excellent leaders within YWAM who are not part of this experience and are not tainted by these behaviors. I encourage you to write your complaints directly to Loren Cunningham, John Dawson and the board of Directors on the island of Kona. Please do not
harm the call of Matthew 28:18 by grouping everyone together as a Cult. It could not be further from the truth.
As a ywamer myself for the last 15 years (geez… sounds a little long, eh?) I must say that.. 1) I appreciate your article Jen, and 2) You and many others have had some pretty crappy experiences. That sucks. And I apologize that my organisation has been so lame as cause you such emotional trauma.
It’s sad to think that such treatment, be it real or perceived, can go on in such a great organization (yeah, I’m referring to YWAM). Fortunately, I’ve never had to deal with anything approaching cult-like behaviour, though I have gotten really, really pissed off at YWAM leaders before, though mainly because of character flaws, or rudeness, or a lack of open-mindedness. But brainwashing? Never.
I’m a 32 year old guy serving in India with YWAM. I’ve volunteered in 20 plus cities in Eastern Europe, North America, Australia, and Asia. Some of the most amazing things I’ve seen in YWAM were:
- A blind lady physically healed on an outreach to South India after our team prayed for her
- YWAMers give sacrificially to raise $30,000 AUD so that poorer DTS students could all go together on the group outreach
- Co-workers who had the character and integrity to admit they were wrong when they were…and were mature enough to apologize
- A DTS school leader who once pressed $10 USD into my hand after I had been praying (alone) that God would provide the $8 I needed to buy meds at the local chemist.
- A base leader who, after I got pissed off and insulted him, took me out to lunch and “mended fences”, so to speak
- A married staff couple who emptied their checking account – not for an abusive leader or financial project – for a young single guy who had a vision to work in China and needed the cash to get there
While it is true that YWAM does also have it’s weaknesses, I’ve had the incredible privilege to work and serve with people who… many years later… I still admire and look up to. And there are also some people I’d never work with again – though usually for reasons of personality or management style.
I wish the same was true for you Jen.
My last observation is this-
YWAM, as an organization, has a recruiting and facilitation process that works: This main YWAM strength – the idea that anybody can hear God, be led by God, or use their skills and ideas to serve God – is also our greatest weakness. Because that process of letting nearly anybody take up a position of influence and responsibility also carries with it the greatest risk of failure.
Seasoned Missionary,
My whole purpose in writing this blog is not to defame YWAM, but to bring attention to something that has been overlooked: abuse can happen anywhere, even in YWAM. By the way, I know of many people who have written complaints to Loren Cunningham and to regional leaders & these complaints have been swept under the rug.
I know there are good leaders within YWAM & I still have a lot of friends in YWAM, however, there are many bases where abuse is rampant and ignored. I believe the beginning of YWAM was good, but with so many autonomous bases being run with very little accountability, there is a huge opportunity for abuse. Believe me, I know. I plan on writing on my most recent experience, but I will hold off until I am back in the USA (next month).
Blessings,
Jen
My church’s youth leaders are really pushing YWAM – I’m researching and trying to see if this is a good direction for my high schoolers looking for a place to minister cross culturally. I’m growing more and more uneasy about it. Would any/all of you send your kiddos out with YWAM for a DTS thousands of miles away? How can we even know what the leadership is like at each school?
Thanks for your time!
Linda,
I worked with YWAM through my teenage years and also as an adult. I personally would never allow my children to be involved with YWAM because of the experiences our family has had. -And the experiences of many of my friends within YWAM.
I went to a church that was YWAM-happy & that is the reason I got involved with them to begin with. I wish my parents had done research & found another organization I could have worked with.
I would recommend groups such as: Global Expeditions http://www.globalexpeditions.com/
or Adventures in Missions http://www.adventures.org/
If your kids are interested in China, I know of a reputable groups here in Hong Kong that could help you out.
Hope that helps,
Jen
Thanks so much, Jen. Your website, and the testimonies of others throughout cyberspace, have been extremely helpful for us as we process where to go from here regarding YWAM. We’re one of two families at our church that are growing uneasy with all the YWAM stuff, and we’re trying to think through how we should present our concerns to the couple who leads our youth. If you have any suggestions, that would be great. We really appreciate their passion for and love of the kids, but we don’t know if they’re as discerning as they probably need to be. May God bless your work there!
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Robere is a prophet!
We just got kicked out of our YWAM base because they brought in a new “Apostle” who laid down the tired old hyper-name it/claim it stuff, with a heavy dose of “your leaders are the voice of God — never question them!” And of course, we saw through that crap instantly and didn’t yield for a second.
We were banned from the base earlier this week, so that we would not “confuse the students with conflicting views” (we were NOT leading this DTS and had no idea about where the new leaders of our base were taking us — I was on outreach when the school was planned).
So, we went home, prayed about it, and when our base director called to say that we would also be required to attend a “meeting with leadership” before being allowed back on the base, we just said, “see ya”!!
This stuff really steams my shorts…
Robbymac,
I’m so sorry that you are going through this difficult time with YWAM because you have stood up for Truth.
The exact same thing happened to my husband and I last June with the base we were with. -We spoke against heresy, and we not allowed to talk to anyone on the base & my husband received a screaming “lecture” from leaders.
I admire you for taking a stand and hopefully others at your base will have the discernment you have had.
You will be in my prayers,
Jen
Thanks, Jen!
We’re actually praising God for answered prayer right now — when we got back from outreach, we could sense that something wasn’t right. Little hints and all the staff acting a little weird, but nothing you could make a decisive call on.
So, when we saw that the “Apostle” had been invited to speak at the newest CDTS (which we’d been asked to staff only a week before it started) we began praying that God would so expose the Apostle’s teaching for what it was, that our base leaders would have no option but to reveal their own agenda for the base.
God answered our prayers really clearly! The Apostle was so blatantly obvious, and the leaders defended him and insisted that everyone must “welcome the Man of God — and you don’t question the Apostle”, and then banned Wendy & I from the base so that we wouldn’t interfere with the Apostle’s teaching…
It was such a no-brainer to leave. God exposed what they were doing, and the extent to which the base leadership has not only embraced, but is actively promoting the false teaching.
Feel free to drop by my blog and send me an email from there; I’d like to keep in touch with you and your husband.
Thanks for your vote of confidence Robbymac. I realise you are being kind about the suggestion of prophet status, but it is something that I will have to decline, in this life at least and probably the next!
As you are aware we are all fellow travellers on the long journey called life. One thing that keeps me going when the going gets tough is one of Leunig’s older cartoons (http://www.leunig.com.au/cartoons/). I still have it pasted on my home office filing cabinet after putting it there about 25 years ago. It is a series of cartoons about the long and often arduous journey of life and Leunig’s secret formula of how we can get to our destination. In essence the journey of the little cartoon figure through a rather barren landscape never ends, the destination never appears on the horizon, and the advice is to “just keep on going”!
I presume you have now left YWAM. If so, this is where the journey got difficult for me. However, I hope the transition is easier for you. Nonetheless, with some determination and persistence, I got over the first hill, started up the second and somehow see a few more hills in front of me with no Shangrila in sight as yet. It hasn’t been all hard going though and my post-YWAM years have brought much personal achievement, satisfaction and joy. Yes, life goes on after YWAM; revel in it.
Cheers
Robere
I can’t find a direct link to a digital copy of Michael Leunig’s Cartoon, ‘How to get there’, but here is the script for this unforgettable cartoon (from Leunig’s book, ‘A Bunch of Poesy’):
“Go to the end of the path until you get to the gate
Go through the gate and head straight out
towards the horizon
Keep going towards the horizon
Sit down and have a rest every now and again
But keep on going. Just keep on with it.
Keep on going as far as you can.
That’s how you get there.”
It’s a pity you can’t see the little figure with his worldly belongings wrapped in the proverbial cloth bundle hanging off the end of the pole that is slung over his shoulder, but I am sure you will recreate the picture in your mind’s eye. I personally experienced ‘going through the gate’ as my exit from YWAM and fundamentalist religion many years ago.
robbymac, I wish I could say that I am surprised that YWAM kicked you out, but anyone contributing to this blog would not be.
I am saddened, in that YWAM needed / needs the voice of reason, integrity and humility, that is you.
I know you will do well at whatever you put your hand to, my prayer is that your new ministry would thrive and be a blessing to many.
I would also pray that ‘your voice’ would never be silent when ‘righteouness’ needs to be upheld and that somehow even the ‘deafened’ would hear.
God Bless
[...] http://chasingtruth.wordpress.com/2007/12/13/is-ywam-a-cult/#comments [...]
I am grieved to read of all the negative experiences people have had with YWAM. I work with YWAM and all the reasons I decided to are the exact opposite of what you describe – the servant leadership (leaders scrubbing toilets and giving sacrificially), the challenge to think for yourself and reason from the Bible, the incredible discipleship and teaching by example (one of our foundational values is “do first, then teach”), amazing faith based on relationship with God, and the commitment to keep “short accounts” – make things right quickly.
We Internationally are currently in an extended season of regular prayer and getting our hearts right before God, as Paul describes it to “circumcise” our hearts and live holy lives. God is dealing with us as I know there are branches that you might say, are not connected to the vine as described in John 15 and so are not bearing fruit. That is changing – “He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful.” God will not allow corruption to remain unchecked among His people.
I have seen God do incredible miracles – healing hearts and bodies – through the hands of YWAMers and heard hundreds of incredible stories of what God has done. Go here to read some: http://www.ywam.org/notfound.asp?404;http://www.ywam.org:80/contents/abo_stories.htm&bhcp=1.
The statement of another is so true – our greatest strength is also our greatest weakness – we believe anyone can hear God, be led by God or use their skills and ideas to serve God – but that also means taking the risk that the many we empower into leadership could go astray. I believe it is a risk worth taking, and we must trust that God will point out and weed out those not “attached to the vine,” the “wolves in sheeps clothing,” because God truly does have a calling and purpose for EVERYONE if they are willing to step out!!!!
Well, just forgive them. One brother said read Gene Edwards book “A tale of three kings” weekly if you work with ywam.
Let’s grow up. One of the most horrible ways to live is to dwell in the past. Or even to dwell in the future. When we do either, we miss out on the very blessings God brings into our lives EACH MOMENT AND EACH DAY. HE WILL HEALL YOU–GET OVER THEM–THEY’RE NOBODIES!!!
When we concoct “organisations” –right there we have strayed from the path. It is no surprise so many have been offended. To live with Jesus in basic fellowship is all you need. Many aspire with ugly ambition to “Join” (you name the group) . There are in fact profound areas of darkness within any people calling themselves by the name of any man contrived “organisation”. Forget em, and move on. Jesus has so many good things besides ! He is well able to discipline the people who are ignoring the wounding they have inflicted. He loves them still as much as you or me. Scripture says, “you will look for them but not find them…” Jesus is beyond our ability to fathom. He can still lead people to be in ywam if he wants—and it’s none of our business. I stayed at ywam in the united states and amazingly after just sharing my heart with a student he reaches out and says to me ” brother God must have sent you here. There is no fellowship of the heart in this place and i just long for that…” It was one on the most amazing moments of my life. We all have individual experiences. Jesus was not imune to betrayal and abusive circumstances. Ywamers are abusive not because of some unique set of people—BUT BECAUSE WE ALL FALL SHORT IN MANY WAYS. NO ONE EXCEPTED.
If we forgive and move on, it is better for us. Keep biting at each other and beware you don’t start devouring each other. If you have never heard of the hornets God sent to destroy abusive rebels–get your concordance out and find it. They will be dealt with–but by Jesus not you or me. Count on it. Besides , if the footman have wearied you, waht will happen to you when you must run with horses? If a few sad westerners have brassed you off by taking your money (jesus said don’t ask for it back) what wil you do when others put you in prison and assign you to the friring squad–as a target–not a shooter,
Hello, Jen and all others publishing here…
As a YWAMer for the last 13 years, all I can say is that I really regret having to read this testimonies, for I believe they are true! But no, I won’t leave YWAM, and I will keep encouraging people to go through a DTS at bases I know and with leaders I trust. Yes, there was, there is and probably there will be abuse in leadership in YWAM. As there was, is and will be abuse in Churches all over the world… I believe that the only way to change things and make sure that we cut all the cultish behavior is to stay and live a life of freedom in God here.
My wife and I were victims of abuse by leadership in YWAM at the time we wanted to start our relationship (yeap, no surprises here, eh???) and we thank God for another leader, a member of the GLT, that stepped in and helped us, modeling grace and freedom to us. So, in the same organization we found leaders that abused us and leaders that freed us. Our decision? To be the ones who will help others to live free.
What I can tell you as part of YWAM (in Australia as well) is that I would love to help you to get in contact with those leaders who hurt you and try to bring you into a place where you can find healing and the situation can be avoided in the future.
What I can guarantee you is that there are a lot of people in YWAM, young leaders specially, that will change the face of the organization and they will push more and more for the redemption of the original vision of Loren, which God has done in the last 5 years or so, and we will see YWAM moving in freedom to accomplish the purpose of God in us.
I thank God that even being hurt and abused you found hope and hold on to your faith! Good on you!
With the qualifying statement that it is not my wish to sound unkind, I ask, “Why do we with fundamentalist Christian backgrounds blindly accept the guilt-engendering words of the Apostle Paul, as it appears Linnea does in her above guarded defence of YWAM?” Linnea speaks about how she and others in YWAM are trying to ‘get their hearts right with God’ and states,
“……. Paul describes it to “circumcise” our hearts and live holy lives. God is dealing with us as I know there are branches that you might say, are not connected to the vine as described in John 15 and so are not bearing fruit.”
I too blindly accepted St Paul’s words as the ‘inspired Word of God’ in years gone by, but to be honest, I now seriously question St Paul’s point of view and the veracity of his words as a true reflection of God. Rather, I wonder whether his words reflect a very obsessional personality that is typically caught up with personal guilt and a sense of eternal shortcoming, with his view of god better seen as an example of anthropomorphism. It is a fair hypothesis when you analyse his writings. I mean, some individuals never believe they are pure enough and seem to go through life subjecting themselves to continual self-flagellation. You see it in pronounced form among individuals with personality disorders in inpatient psychiatric settings. It appears to be the psychological version of the actual self-flagellation that can be seen in the now famous footage of Philippine Christians whipping themselves during their Easter-time parades, with blood seen streaming down their backs. What effort and suffering they endure to appease their never-satisfied and ever-critical heavenly father.
I also see the same obsessional and guilt traits in a YWAM identity such as Joy Dawson, as I do in St Paul. That is, she preaches an eternal quest for holiness and thereby loads a burden of guilt both on herself and others because no one can ever attain such a non-human state of so-called perfection. In fact, if you have ever heard Dean Sherman’s spiritual warfare presentation, again he also triggers much guilt in his youthful audiences because of his never-ending references to how holiness is linked to guarding ourselves against the wiles of Satan. Interestingly, the only significant difference that I see between Joy Dawson and Dean Sherman is that Dean appears not to experience the internal conflict and guilt that he engenders in his audience. An interesting difference indeed, and one that would take up too much comment space on this blog in an effort to present the possible reasons behind such individual differences! Maybe I’ll leave it to those in Jen’s audience to consider the reasons why Joy and Dean may be so different in their reaction, yet at the same time champion a very similar message about the virtues of holiness.
My alternative philosophy might sound awfully simple and unsophisticated compared to the intricate and convoluted messages of these YWAM teachers, but putting it parsimoniously, I believe that my behaviour should be guided by a deep respect for my fellow human beings, not by guilt, or the fear of a big stick striking me from on high. What wonderful freedom this simplicity has brought me as the years have gone by, but alas it would have been even more wondrous to have experienced it in my youth.
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[...] http://chasingtruth.wordpress.com/2007/12/13/is-ywam-a-cult/#comments [...]
These are the bases and structures I’m familiar with, I currently attend and work with an Assembles of God church in Washington, D.C.
YWAM bases I, or someone I trust dearly, have been involved with:
Self(Missionary):
England (Holmsted Manor Kings Lodge, Harpenden)
South Africa (Worcester, Muizenberg)
Poland (Southern Poland)
Washington DC (YWAM DC)
Life Long Friend(Teacher):
Hungary, India
Brother(Police Officer):
Switzerland(Luisanne)
Israel
Brother(Store Manager):
Scotland(Scotland)
Bolivia
Life Long Friend(Full Time Young Life Leader)
Australia
Friend (Missionary)
Argentina
Life Long Friend(Designer)
Nashville
Friend & coworker (Church Worker)
Australia
We’ve all been in churches, unhealthy and healthy ones. I know YWAM bases, all of the above listed experiences are absolutely positive, lives that have been brought from infancy into discipleships in the structure of YWAM. Unhealthy bases have and probably do exist. Decentralization in part of YWAMs vision, its why it is so huge, its also why it can be vulnerable to bad, self focused community structures. A lot of energy goes into keeping this from happening and cutting it off when it does happen. It works the same way with other church groups and organizations. Lets set the record straight though. Most bases are healthy. I can say that with the authority of a sweeping perspective.
Linda V, and anyone else:
If you want to send your students off for a cross-cultural missionary experience, send them to YWAM Fortaleza! for DTS!!! our DTS leaders are awesome!
I promise, they would LOVE it!
Our leaders and staff our great! I’m not saying that just because I am from there. Some of the coolest, sweetest, funnest, funniest people live here. Our base leader is a very serious, hard working man, but he is fun too. He LOVES teens and young people and well, I think he is crazy too!(in a good way!) But we all love him!
If you know anyone who is a go-getter send them here. We need young hard working, go-getters!
God Bless you all!
Our base leader is an amazing man of God too. You would like him.
Ah, this is truly sad. I was kicked out of Arvada just before the shootings, all the people shot were my good friends. Tiff even cried when I told her I was being kicked out. Unfortunately, the way I was kicked out was strikingly similar to the allegations Matthew Murray made. I have given YWAM Arvada time to repent and apologize, but nothing. Speaking out against them though is hard for me to do. I am in ministry still, and I don’t want to offend the Lord. Unfortunately though, I can assure people, that what Matthew Murray suffered at YWAM Arvada is no isolated incident.
Perhaps I will write more later.
My girlfriend is about to join YWAM Perth at the beginning of October.
1. Can you tell me if this specific program has been characterized as negative.
2. What are the YWAM “rules” on relationship, and do you feel like the program will intentionally try to convince her to end our relationship?
3. What advise can I give her before she goes?
I am also a former ywamer and my experience with them was not good at all. I agree with a lot of things that I saw from the blogs. I am currently trying to write a paper on the impact of Ywam leadership. would anyone be willing to take a short survey or you can just write about your expereinces with Ywam.
Somebody please respond to my post!
Need to Know,
I’m sorry I haven’t responded sooner. -I have a one-week old baby at home, so I’ve not had time to post.
Is your girlfriend very familiar with YWAM? I have never personally been to YWAM Perth, so I cannot tell you of abuse received there. -For all I know it may be a balanced base.
“Can you tell me if this specific program has been characterized as negative.”
-Is she attending a DTS? Like I said, it depends on the base leadership, but in my personal experience with many, many YWAM bases, there is a great deal of spiritual abuse. The DTS is the foundation of YWAM’s beliefs and I liken it to brainwashing.
“What are the YWAM “rules” on relationship, and do you feel like the program will intentionally try to convince her to end our relationship?”
-YWAM discourages any kind of romantic relationships during DTS, as it is seen as a “honeymoon with God”. They teach that having a close relationship is ‘distracting’ from God & the calling you may have. In the base I was in, dating & marriage was strongly frowned upon & seen as not-as-holy. I don’t know if they would tell her to end your relationship…it really depends on the base.
“What advise can I give her before she goes?”
-Tell her to keep her eyes & ears open & if at any time she feels uncomfortable, to get out. Many times, when under the leadership of those seen as ‘more spiritual’, people can begin to not trust their own intuition.
I hope that answered your questions & helps with your girlfriend.
Blessings,
Jen
Jaime, leave some way to contact you, and I will, and probably so will others.
Thank you for your detailed response! She is going to go to DTS. I think it is required. We have been going over the different ‘tactics’ that she might experience that I learned from a few websites.
It is really disappointing to hear that she will probably be pressured into being single.
I guess the final question I have is, during DTS will she be able to contact me? We were planning on using skype while she was gone, but will there be internet access?
I have sent a few emails to leaders of her program with some basic questions but they have been really sketchy in their responses, or lack there of.
Howdy,
busy day just been speed reading some stuff here. I don’t want to enter into the discussion above don’t have time & I think all sides of the argument have been covered. I just thought I should post something to “need to know” about Perth. Firstly as we have all hopefully realised by now YWAM (just as the “Emerging Church Movement” I have read many criticism’s about that also) has more expressions & diversity that one person’s brain can fathom. One cannot compare the way an institutionalised Church runs with a “decentralised movement”.
So personally I can only with real authority speak on behalf of YWAM Australia of which I have been a part for 4.5 years.
So to “need to know” I would just like to say that my experiences with YWAM Perth have been quite positive. If I am totally honest I find the base quite strict compared to my base & therefore YWAM Adelaide fits me better this said I simulatanously realise that my base of 35 staff compared to Perth’s of 250 requires a more organised approach to things. I have had a number of friends go to Perth & do school’s with YWAM Perth etc etc & they have loved it. Of late I have been totally amazed by the testimonies coming from YWAM Perth & I have friends there who I have really seen grow since joining that base so it’s not a cult by any means.
“Need to know” I can tell you that your daughter will definitely be able to contact you. I know that some program’s actually put a time slot in the schedule to contact people (a very non cult characteristic) back at home. Actually I think all YWAM Australia bases now have Wi-Fi interent access. YWAM Perth is the most technologically advanced base so Skype will be fine to use.
If you want to know more feel free to ask?
ps. For everyone else I think it is important to note that nearly all the criticism’s I have read about YWAM occurred a fair time ago which means it was mostly likely during the period where there was something called “The Shepherding Movement” (google it) it disturbs me greatly to hear stories from my leader’s of aspects of spiritual abuse that occurred at this time & wish YWAM & many other churche’s had never interpreted the Bible so wrong. This said movements sometimes make mistakes & collapse & sometimes make mistakes, repent & learn from them I am happy in general we have done the later (at least in Australia). I personally know people who were bossed around & told they couldn’t date someone etc but you know they got over it & didn’t let a few people with bad theology take away from their calling OR still see the positive aspects. Since I have been in YWAM though I have witnessed none of this just heard a few stories. As a progressive Christian also involved in many other Christian organisations I simply love being in YWAM & the opportunities it gives me.
Wow that was a lot comment & I have work to do.
Peace
Hi all, I am a former YWAMer, kudos chica to your blog. Reading this makes my blood boil just remembering all the
crap I wish they would get a clue, close the whole thing down and rebuild it correctly
Hello Jen; I was just reading some of the older posts and came across one from robbymac dated April 5th, 2008. I was in that class and can confirm that what he is saying is indeed correct in regards to the “apostle”. The students and staff alike were told a completely different story as to why this couple was not at the base. I’m currently experiencing some problems with the leadership as I’m now on staff. The same “apostle” just spoke at the most recent DTS and I’m shaking my head as to why.
Not all YWAM leaders are the same, there really are some good ones as there are good and bad leaders with any Christian organization, so I’m not writing off YWAM all together, just praying as to where my husband and I should go from here.
It makes me sad to see how many have been hurt by YWAM. I think that part of the reason that the leadership in so many places is so bad is that they have been hurt themselves and haven’t experienced first hand what good leadership should be.
Just read through many of the posts and felt alternately blessed by some experiences and enraged at the treatment some endured.
I was on staff with YWAM until last year. I was a DTS leader for some years. With one notable exception, the leadership that I witnessed was generally very good. In that exceptional situation, the leader was removed during a school and the outreach cancelled due to students experiences.
Differences in teaching are permitted. I remember 2 speakers back to back having conflicting teaching. I personally think that it is healthy to be exposed to various perspectives and learn to go back to what the Bible says.
Some answers for Lynda –
Dating (where I was): Not allowed during a DTS. In some cases relationships would develop which were obviously detracting from the goal of getting closer to God and discussions ensued. Having said that, in other cases when it might have been evident that there was an attraction but it was not detracting from the learning process, nothing was said. Some healthy marriages resulted and I’m thrilled!
Cost for outreach:
Our base and a number of other announce the cost beforehand with a range (i.e. $3000 – $4000) and we stuck to it. One year we even gave a reimbursement to the students of about $500! On the other hand, a close friend sent his daughter to another base, and the price of the outreach rose dramatically, – to app. $6000 much to his dismay. (His daughter did come back on fire for God however, for which he was very greatful). This is an important consideration for where to go for a DTS.
Exit interviews for staff would be a good idea.
There are evaluations that students fill out for both the lecture phase and the outreach phases in order to promote constant improvement. These I believe are now required for all DTS courses that are registered for credit and have been for a few years. (Some countries do not offer the DTS for U of N credit and may not have evaluations.)
I would be very happy if my children took a DTS. I would however, check into the base where they want to do it and offer counsel and advice.
this is little questionnaire about Ywam, would you please fill it and i will share the results with you guys.
http://fs2.formsite.com/pierrephilistin/form343288297/
just tried to fill out the survey and the mail box is full.
I would like to comment. I was just reviewing Jens first blog.
I agree with her about the universality of ywam behavior. I did
my dts in 92 on the anastasis. Most of the fulltimers were a bunch of dysfunctional people who appeared to be unable to
handle life in the real world.
I got assinged to breakfast duty, the toaster was broken. It was
amazing to observe the torrents of whinning and snivviling that ensued because of it. But what were we learning in our
DTS. ? To suck it up die to yourself etc. Obviously the full timers forgot that, interesting. It seemed like we were expected to behave one way but everyone else was allowed
to do what ever they wanted. One morning my friend and I
were standing in the galley and they began to enter for their
breakfast. I looked at him and said ” here come the children
of Isreal, let the murmering begin, ” what a bunch of hypocri
tes.
The thing I loved the most is this…. THey used to love to tell
us not to go back home with a negative report and tried com-
pare calling them on their bad behavior to the spies in the land. HOw manipulative . I remember so clearly when my
last day of YWAM was ,9/18/92 I was sooooooooooooooooooo
happy to be out of there. My friend and I had a term for those
who just couldnt see what sham the whole thing was. We
called them RAH RAHS. THey were the leadership hopefuls.
Abality and annointing were never taken into consideration, only were you a little rah rah or not. This one lady in my dts is
still full timer in Hawaii. I dont think shell ever get it.
Did my DTS in 2003 in Kona.
I too think that both sides have been presented here fairly well.
some points i’d want to add:
YWAM is kinda messy. Every quarter hey shove thousands of students through this DTS thingie that acts like some kind of spiritual pressure cooker and if you happen to have some mental instability this can be get very ugly. Also if you are not sold out for God and instead seeking some exciting experience then the pressure will be felt as some kind of hostility. On the other hand, if you do seek to get closer to God, then you will welcome the pressure because it actually pushes you in the direction you wanted to go anyway.
All this relates to a situation where there are no leaders of the mentioned abusive kind.
In a way this discussion reminds me of the silly “backwards masking” craze of the 80’s (Rock music), where perpetrators totally lost sight of what musicians actually _do_, that being making music. In the case of YWAM: It’s about missions! We taught English to Cambodians. We prayed for the sick. We gave testimony. That, and the core values of YWAM are beyond reproach. Everything else is subject to human fallibility and the nature of distributed systems. Oh, and there is no such thing as YWAM doctrine. It’s a healthy mix from the whole spectrum of denominations, from Southern Baptists all the way to Morningstar Ministries.
That being said – i think it is wise to check if a base is in a sane state before you send your kids there.
The reason why i got to this page: I saw a disturbing photo on google-earth of a “security gate” at the entrance to the Kona Campus on Kuakini Highway…, someone is getting paranoid there, i thought, and googled away.
I am finishing my DTS on Friday, and will move on with my life from there.
Of the list of eight signs, two of them are present in my school:
Milieu Control
Loading the Language
Milieu Control
there is by no means complete control here. We have to be in the building by 11pm or midnight, depending on the day, but our ample free time allows us to go anywhere we want. We live in a dorm-like setting, and all of us have the code for the door locks. Most students leave right after the DTS with no pressure to continue to another school. The case for this sign is far from airtight at my particular one.
Loading the Language
“prefer your brother” “Choose it” and other phrases are daily occurrences with some of the properties described. If someone complains, rather than conversing with the people, some leaders will end the conversation with “choose it”, meaning, “choose to be content in a situation you don’t like.” This is irritating because our concerns are sometimes dismissed quickly. However, if you confront the leaders about their loaded language, most of them will give you their ear and respond thoughtfully.
I can assure you, the school I took my DTS is not a cult, as prescribed by those eight signs. I imagine that they do exist elsewhere, but there just isn’t that kind of mind control going on.
Aloha from YWAM Maui. I have been involved with YWAM for about 13 years.. In the course of this time I have also been blessed to work along side Campus crusade. I have also been able to minister alongside churches.. and I can tell you that in none of these organizations are people perfect. I can say that I have seen abuse of power.. I have seen people not listened to. I have seen people hurt. I have also seen people repent and change their ways.. I have seen people own up to their actions and apologize.. I would like to remind all of us that our fight is not against flesh and blood.. and I would love to urge us to continue to pray for the leaders in any christian organization.. that they would be able to make great decisions and be good , healthy leaders. I also commend those that speak out against heresy and any wrong doing on a base. We all need accountability… and unfortunatelt those leaders that do not repent have the creator God to answer to. No one will “get away” with their injustices. Thank God that He loves us and is for the humble.. I love YWAM and I love my job.. I am priveleged to work in ministry and I pray that whenever any of us christians are hurt by any sort of leader that we would approach them in love.. and if they do not respond that we take a witness.. take it to the next person in charge.. so on and so forth. Thank you for letting us know about YWAM Hong Kong.. I will asking my leaders about that base..
Hi Jen,
thanks for your blog.
Some have asked why there are so few YWAMers who speak out after hundreds of thousands have gone through their schools. The answer is simple – intimidation.
I recently told a theological class that YWAM had been built on Pelagian theology, a revived Finneyism. I mentioned that this was taught on all bases, at one time or another, and that many leaders are still committed to the heretical perspective. That is why it is almost impossible to find anybody in YWAM that teaches justification by faith alone. Of course, a number of people in the class had dear friends who they support in YWAM. They told me that I did not know what YWAM was like, and that it was just a bad and isolated experience. One megachurch in response to my critique, I have been told, had threatened to boycot the college that I work at because I am not pro-YWAM.
So what can a person gain by being a whistle-blower. A reputation for being nasty, divisive and in need of counselling. Why bother. YWAM knows how to win the public relations contest, and how to conceal their theological aberrations. They are thoroughly networked among theologically naive churches, which unfortunately these days, includes some of the most conservative denominations in the world. Perhaps the ‘deny-ers’ should ask why so many websites catalogue YWAM excesses, and question whether it is a cult. Is there another major ‘mission’ oganisation that gets that kind of press?
The abuse I experienced was minimal, in fact, they were among the happiest days of my life. But we shouldn’t be surprised by this, most cults are enjoyable experiences. The full understanding of liberties denied and theological aberrations for some, at least, are a long and slow dawning.
Jen, I do wish that there was a safe place for ex-YWAMers to express their views without fear of Christian retribution from the ignorant (of YWAM) majority. Many need real support, and unfortunately, we have no way of finding the many secret YWAM victims. I hope that your site can contribute some assistance to the many who have experienced the same over-authoritarian MO on many continents.
God bless
Martin,
Yes, intimidation is a big deal. Those who are still in the YWAM worldview cannot understand those who have spoken out.
My husband and I were persecuted a great deal by those we knew still in the organization, so I thought there needed to be a voice online to help others going through the same. There is some anonymity online, but those at the HK base know who we are and of course, they have their version of the story.
At this point, I really don’t care what they think of me, so why not help others within YWAM or those trying to recover from YWAM. -That’s what fuels this blog.
Blessings,
Jenn
Jen, thank you for this post.
For many years I belonged to a church that is deeply involved in YWAM activities, including DTS. The “senior pastor” teaches at many DTSs.
Over time, I found that the leadership at this church went from being on a level plane with all congregants to highly authoritarian and intolerant of dissent. The tone of sermons (etc.) became increasingly judgmental, guilt-inducing, OT-centered and greatly lacking in love and mercy.
In 2002, I was made to leave this church, based on some false accusations made by the “senior pastor” and other people involved in “leadership.” It was a hugely painful time for me, and I’ll admit that at the beginning, I would have done almost anything in order to be accepted back into the church, and the music ministry in particular. (I stress that only because their chief way of getting me to leave was to remove me from the music ministry and to tell other musicians that they were forbidden to speak with me, either on the phone or in person.) At the time I left, various George Otis and John & Joy Dawson-inspired “teachings” had become central to this church’s presentation of the Gospel. (Included prayer walking and other aspects of “strategic level spiritual warfare,” taking the city for God, viewing certain kinds of sins as unforgivable, etc.)
The person in charge of this church is still doing DTSs, as far as I’m aware.
There were so many former-YWAMers in that church, most of them lovely people. We were all so caught up in what I now see as largely YWAM-inspired ideas… So reading the comments here is very helpful to me.
It has taken many years for me to get to the point where I feel that I can consider attending another church. The awareness that I *wasn’t* “off” or crazy – that I’d actually been abused – took a long time to sink in, and even longer to process.
Though I do believe that many in YWAM have good intentions, I seriously question many of the doctrines they teach *now*, and have no difficulty believing that many YWAM “leaders” use manipulation and intimidation to control and silence anyone who questions them and their methods. Because that’s exactly what happened to me, in a YWAM-affiliated church.
I do hope that my comment will be of some help to anyone considering YWAM with an eye to missions. Although I never attended a DTS, I do think that I’ve survived experiences very similar to those that many former YWAMers describe. If you’re one of them – if you’re questioning – please know that you’re doing the right thing. Although I cannot advise, I certainly would recommend that anyone contemplating involvement take the time to do thorough research – including other organizations. Hype does *not* necessarily equal “good,” and I’m sure there are many balanced, healthy missions organizations (small and large) that would be an excellent fit.
Hello
I would like to respon to e2c. I to went to a church where a
good deal of the congregants were YWAMERS, the pastor too
taught frequently at the DTS> He still does and he left the
state 9 or 10 years ago. I had often considered speaking to
him about some of these issues. Probably a waste of time. I still respect him and his wife but sometimes you got to know
when to hold em when to fold em and when to run. I am truly
sorry for your pain and loss. what a lonley road we who
dont believe that WYAM is seated at the right hand of God, walk. Blessings to all of you in your journeys.
Thanks for this forum. It is so interesting to read and reflect on. I was involved with YWAM for 3 years in the late 1990s, as a 19 – 21 year old. I loved it at the time, and received a lot of great opportunities and praise from leaders (perhaps upon reflection I was a ‘rah rah’ in response to an earlier post
). I felt very ‘loved’ and appreciated whilst there, made wonderful friends, felt very close to God and had a lot of fun… who knows, perhaps I could have even become a ‘YWAM celebrity’ had I stayed on!
At the end of three years I started to think about moving on from YWAM to pursue study. When I started to voice these ideas of returning to university, I was met with general scepticism and discouragement from leadership – one or two people actually suggested that I better be certain God is calling me there, because God would certainly use me in YWAM but how could I be certain He would use me at University? The more I began to question some of the ‘group think’ that was present, the more I began to see and started to have a hunch that something was not quite right.
Thankfully, I made the break – though it took me a long time to feel ‘normal’ again – to find my feet, recover old friendships, church etc. Thankfully also I stumbled into a church with a very humble pastor that encouraged question asking, honesty, critical thinking – a life saver for me and my faith I think.
I write this because I didn’t at the time feel abused in any way, and actually had a wonderful time at YWAM. But with a few more years of life experience, there are many things I now question – and I would hesitate to encourage other young people to go. The problem is that manipulation is often subtle (and even those who are manipulating would not actually always be aware they are doing so), so it is difficult to detect exactly what it is that is going on.
There are a few things I wanted to comment on:
1) Yes, there are good and bad leaders everywhere. I had some wonderful people around me, and I still am in touch with some who are good friends. But – I think there is a lot of ’spiritual jargon’ in general YWAM speak that that covers up control and manipulation (’not touching ‘or questioning’ the Lord’s annointed’ etc.). It creates an environment where people are not able to express themselves, ask questions, be honest, use their brains, and lays a foundation for potential control and manipulation.
2) Day to day life on ‘base’ is often so all-consuming that there is no time to really catch up with family and friends. I once expressed my dissatisfaction to a leader about having no time for external relationships (too many meetings) and was told that this is what was required. I feel like there is a blip in those years of my life where I can’t remember what family or long term friends were even up to.
3) The intense community experience and ‘living on base’ makes it difficult for people to integrate with normal day to day life around them. I met people in YWAM I would consider to be ‘instututionalised’ – terrified of the ‘real world’, renting a house, getting a job, studying, etc. The longer people stay, and the less work experience, education people have, I think the scarier it is to make the change. This also means that when you leave YWAM, many people within its walls cannot relate to you at all – and can’t seem to imagine that you might possibly be serving God in life outside YWAM. It also means that you suddenly get many requests (as a student, mind you) to support your YWAM friends ministry as they jetset across the world on various schools and missions.
4) Financial abuse – the base I was at had financial problems, and from time to time asked staff to take days of casual work at factories to donate the wages to the base. This is one thing – but then they asked the DTS students at the time to work for a week or maybe more – DTS students who paid money for training – who were now working in factories and donating the wage to the base during their lecture phase. Of course it was voluntary, but ‘voluntary’ is questionable when leadership are requesting – and serving the base is equated with serving God.
5) Inappropriate use of power : An ex-DTS student friend told me that a YWAM leader who we both respected highly called him and said that while she was praying, God had told her to call him and ask him for money. Of course, she said he should pray about it and see what God said. My friend didn’t know what to do – he said he had no spare money at the time, but was confused because this was someone he highly respected and believed was very close to God. There were other instances of highly respected leaders telling DTS students and staff that they had prayed, and God had told them to vote for a certain political party. He encouraged everyone to pray and hear from God about who to vote for, but what is unspoken is that if “highly respected YWAM leader close to God” has heard, who am I to question this?’. Given their elevated positions and ’spiritual leadership’ roles I found these two examples very disturbing and manipulative.
I am not out on a witch hunt, and don’t feel scarred from the whole experience. Rather, it makes me think more and more that any community, church or group etc. that discourages dissent, free thinking, questioning and diversity is scary. I have several friends who have been part of other ‘churches turned cults’ far more serious than my experience, and these elements of ‘group think’ and discouraging dissent or questioning always appear.
Thanks so much for this discussion -
Peace
Jen,
To have so many commenting even a WHOLE YEAR after you originally wrote this post, says a lot about the issues that you’ve raised.
For the record, Wendy & I are still with YWAM, although we have left Canada (our home and native land, as the anthem goes…), and are now in Tijuana Mexico.
This base is such a breath of fresh air. Not perfect, since it still has people in it, but a TON healthier than our former YWAM base. We have thoroughly enjoyed our first six months here.
I’d also like to suggest (highly recommend, actually) The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse for anyone who has been subjected to spiritual abuse, or who knows someone who has been or is currently in a spiritually unhealthy place. I read it years ago when it first came out, and it’s been an extremely helpful resource.
I am shocked and so concerned reading these posts. We were considering going to Reef to Outback DTS in Australia. Can anyone vouch for the leadership there or a recent experience (good or bad) at that base?
thanks!
Just reading through all of these posts makes me realize that we all have work to do in our lives to be emotionally healthy as we follow Jesus.
I have worked in the church and the YWAM world for 35 years and seen unhealthy situations and very healthy situations. It is a good thing to listen to these expressions of problems, because it helps all of us to be more careful to live with healthy boundaries.
I have chosen to try to be a peace maker who brings people together and helps them work through their conflicts and hurts. What YWAM tries to do is provide an atmosphere for discipleship. I have seen that work in a very positive way in so many lives.
I think that part of that atmosphere must be honesty and openness to listen to people who have been offended and take those concerns to heart. Living at peace with all people, as far as it is up to you… is an admonition from the Bible and part of as far as it is up to you means we all have a responsibility to work things out when relationships get messed up.
While my personal experience has been very positive, I have had to work through some difficult situations. But that I did… worked through them. Sometimes challenging the process, or the rules, and I have never found a dead end. But rather maturity and growth as a result.
So. Blessings your way as your walk through stuff. By the way, we will always have stuff in a fallen world with fallen people, no matter where you are. Learning to work through it in a healthy way is a big thing and I am committed to that.
God bless.
My experiance with YWAM was o.k
However I felt like I was in a commune.
I had to share a small room with 4 other guys.
There was one Guy there who berated Me because some friends and I got back late from a movie.
I believe in discipline, but He treated me like a Child even though I was 25 years old.
I don’t know if I agree with working for them and not getting some kind of pay if You are on staff.
I don’t know how people with families do this.
It seems to Me people have to beg for money each month from supporters, and I don’t think that is right.Steve
Need to know:
You said: ” What are the YWAM “rules” on relationship, and do you feel like the program will intentionally try to convince her to end our relationship?”
For the 7 years I have been in YWAM I have witnessed so many YWAMer marriages and relationships. For all the YWAMers I know, marriage is such a wonderful BLESSING from God. I mean, come on, even the Bible tells of how wonderful and precious marriage is.
In Dts it is usually not recommended to date during DTS, but if you already are in a relationship, the situation is a little different. From what I’ve seen the couple usually doesn’t see each other as much, but I’ve never seen any base so far suggest they end the relationship, unless it reallywas just not menat to be. I’ve seen relationships end in my YWAM base, but it was usually the couple that ended it on their own choices. One couple did begin dating, although all their leaders told them they didn’t feel peace about it, and suggested they wait(not end the relationship, just postpone it and wait…) Well, the couple wasn’t together very long. Soon the guy broke up with her, and she just left the base.
Maybe certain CHRISTIANS (not Just YWAMers) look down on dating and marriage.
Emily B,
I’m glad you’ve had a good experience with YWAM.
Let me ask you a question: Do you think that a person can hear from G-d themselves or do they have to have their leader be a mediator?
I have had friends who were told not to date and were kicked out of the base because they planned to marry. They are still happily married, serving G-d. The leaders were (still are) dictators toward the member of the base. They impose their law as if it came from G-d Himself.
That is wrong. That is unbiblical.
In my opinion the issue that YWAM leadership has with dating and sex can be traced back to the whole issue of sexual repression that is an integral part of fundamentalist Christianity (as well as Judaism and Islam). Just look at the number of terms that Judaeo-Christian society has invented to describe the ‘sins of the flesh”: concupiscence, licentiousness, fornication, lasciviousness, lust, adultery, to name just a few. The role of taboo in various cultures needs to be considered in order to better understand why YWAM leadership gets their knickers in such a twist over sex and dating. I wrote an article in my Pseudocults blog titled, “Beware: Sex Leads to Dancing”. It discusses the issue of taboo in the context of my own experiences as an individual who was raised amid the sexual repression and oppression of Pentecostalism. However, other more academic treatises have been put forward about the same topic that might be considered more objective than my own generally subjective views. For example Grant Wacker wrote, “Are Pentecostals Sex-Crazed?” (Christianity Today Vol 45, 2001). His conclusion about this question read:
“Viewed from afar, then, the most reasonable explanation for the licentiousness stereotype was self-interest. Insiders’ claims that other insiders had strayed into gross immorality helped establish the accusers’ own doctrinal and moral purity. Likewise outsiders’ claims helped establish the doctrinal and moral integrity of the outsiders—or lined their pockets with ready cash. Moreover pentecostals brought much of the problem on themselves in a way not yet noted. From the beginning they proved eager to flaunt their rectitude. When conversion, sanctification, and Holy Spirit baptism did not turn them into saints, but left them ordinary Christians subject to the same failings that bedeviled everyone else, the rest of the world noticed.”
(Grant Wacker is Associate Professor of the History of Religion in America at Duke University and the above-mentioned article is an extract from his book, Heaven Below: Early Pentecostals and American Culture. Cambridge, Mass: Harvard University Press, 2001.)
We need to remember that YWAM is essentially a Pentecostal organisation, apart from one that identifies with the broader evangelical movement.
hi,
i’m a former ywamer myself…and to be honest, i would have said that ywam was great and dandy when i was in ywam…
now, i’ve been out of ywam for about 2 years or so…
my experience looking back…i think i was pretty stupid to be in there…
it’s like they are living in their own reality…lots of staff to this day, i can’t stand how they abused their power…i’m not talking about the teaching staff…but the younger 21, 23 year olds who are considered “staff” just because they took a dts before…
whatever, i wouldn’t recommend you to go into ywam unless maybe you want to be a full time missionary…
i dont even go to church anymore…that’s not because of ywam…i just see ywam as some emotional high place whereas life is not…outside of ywam, you realize you still got to go to work…you can’t just chill out at kona, hawaii and meet people from all around the world and not worry about money problems, etc…
you got to work in the real world…
plus, my beef with ywam is that it kind of has that jonestown feeling/vibe to it…for some reason…i am not saying they are a cult…but they have that weird vibe to it…and think they are so hip and cool…sick of these young christians who think they are like rock stars or something…
plus i dont like how the ywam people (well not all) but some leaders prophesy over you…i just dont like that…one guy was supposively had the gift of prophecy…that’s what he claimed he had…what an egotistical guy thinking about it now…
anyhow, this guy prophesied that everyone was great and all…then he came to me…and prophesied about me…he was pretty much INSULTING me the whole damn time!
he was saying something like …oh i think god is saying you should really relax…just be yourself…God loves you for who you are…stop working so hard…
then there was another person who prophesied and said how God loves me so much and how i am going to go into ministry…i’m sorry but BS…i’ve waited all this long…
did all this stuff for God but i ain’t in the ministry…i am not even going to church right now…
that’s 1 thing i don’t like about some ywamers (not all)…some claim to have the gift of prophecy and their prophecy (or false prophecy) can be DANGEROUS to many young or any kind of christian…
because it may NOT be true…it can be their own imagination…and the people hearing it…it can DAMAGE their life…
right after i became a christian, this lady…she’s a well known ywam leader…prophesied some BS prophecy about how i was going to be used by God for his ministry….guess what man…i really thought that was true…
all i did was to look into going into full time ministry…that’s why i went into ywam…even went into seminary…missions…
guess what now, i ain’t even going to church…i quit seminary…i still have bitter feelings about the whole system of ywam and some of my DTS staff…but my MAIN BEEF is how i felt spiritually abused or raped by these guys who call themselves people who have gifts of prophecy…
i wish I NEVER heard those so call prophecy…because to this day, i still have to struggle and wrestle and wonder if maybe God’s calling is for me to go into full time ministry when my heart now is filled with doubt, guilt (because maybe I am not following his “prophesied” calling, etc)…
so my opinion of ywam…
basically, it ain’t no heaven…it ain’t no solution…
seriously people are people…that’s one thing i’ve learned in missions…even the christian missionaries…in missions…places full of inconvenience like in africa where you get no lights or running water…even the CHRISTIANS hate people…just like non christians…even the CHRISTIANS get jealous like non christians…
so stop judging and looking down on non christians because the christians are the same…
even when christians are doing GOOD works, it can be out of their flesh-centered motivations like greed, ego, power, vanity, etc…
so my point is…
PEOPLE ARE PEOPLE…
just because you know truth doesn’t mean you are better…
you really are NOT!
thank you very much…
i’d rather stay anonymous…